a scribed conversation around the dinner table with a visiting group to the cnocnafeola centre and a local story teller
speech in standard type belongs to the guest speaker
those in italics are other guests
some words/statements are in brackets to clarify
i have tried to remain true to the conversation but some speech is inaudible and some is irrelevant to the project
a tin of biscuits was rare just after the war
someone brought a tin to a wake and the
family said we should have the lion’s share
so someone took the corpse’s hand
put it in the tin of biscuits in front of everybody
and give it a rummage and put it back into the coffin
and he reckons then that half the people there
wouldn’t eat the biscuits – so there was a better share
so that would give you an idea
as to what the wakes were like
the other big tradition with the wakes in the mournes
is you’d wait for the spirit to leave the body
three days – if you look at it in muslim or islamic tradition
you bury the body before nightfall
you often say that religion and mythology and fact are mixed
through themselves there – i don’t think it’s a mistake in this
kind of cold country that we keep our bodies for three days
but they wouldn’t keep the bodies in the warm countries
traditionally what had happened here was – that they
hadn’t enough knowledge to know whether a person
was dead or not – and what they were doing – was
they were keeping them long enough – and they were
saying after three days of waking ¬
‘well we’ve had enough round there
and [we can let the spirit] move on
and they were saying after three days
we’ve our work to go to
and he’d better be dead
or a good digger
a lot of the christian tradition took over from
what was old druidism – the old mythology
and what they did was – was they sat with the body
and we still do this – myself and my brother
if there’s a wake – a family that we know
we’d say – well you go the first night ii’ll
go the second night to represent the family
and you sit with the body all night and you
don’t go home until daybreak – and that in the old –
i suppose – people would call it the- what would
you say – it’s really – people are being superstitious
and yes - it is more pagan – if you leave the body
unaccompanied at night – the devil come and steal their
souls – [they do that in mexico…the day of the dead]
we do that here – but someone goes to keep the family
company – and keep them talking – in order to be sure that
nobody falls asleep – that the devil would get in during the
hours of darkness and steal their souls before the parson
would get there –and that’s were the good stories come from
at wakes…to keep you awake – it wasn’t the waking of the body
it was to keep the family awake.
[section of story] then one day…there was a knock on the door
and they asked – is this the house where the dead man lives
there was a man… who was well known because there’s twisted men,
there’s crabbed and then there was james george. they had a saying
that, if he ate nails – he would shit corkscrews. there wasn’t a neighbour in the country that would have spoke to him…and he took really really bad and he was
in hospital and the word was sent round –and they weren’t expecting him to live
and the brother came – and just at the same time that he was bad - the pope was
on his last legs as well – so james george’s brother went up to see him
as they was coming the nurse said o i been sitting round the station
and the pope had died. of course the brother walked in and he said
have you any word today? and she says aye – he’s just died – so
james george’s brother – willy went down and ordered seamus hannah the undertaker and he arrived up with seamus hannah about two hours later
and if he walked in – there was the twisted man sitting eating his breakfast –
they ahd to get seamus hannah put away again – but james was that
wicked they never told him –until about ten years later – he was fighting one
night in o’hagen’s bar - and somebody decided to tell it to him then
he said the biggest mistake they ever made was the night they took seamus hannah up to bury you and they never buried you - you bastard.
and he was the only man in the country
who didn’t know he was ready to be buried
there was a great competitiveness in wee countries like this
it was away at the top of atticall road – there was a wake going on
a bit of a scare went round that there wouldn’t have been enough
food to go round – so what they decided was they would feed the
ones from atticall road before they would feed the tullyfern ones
so some of the tullyfern ones took a bit of an offence to it – and the greatest revenge they could have done on them is – the home made butter was
done in pats y’know and it was all designed - so what somebody did
was – somebody got in the back window and stole the pat of butter –
so they were standing outside with the butter and saying they’ll not each much without us – but after about half an hour – there was no fuss – t was no
good – the whole idea was to start a row – by stealing the butter –
so they figured out – we’re running out of patience – so what are we
going to do? – so one of them says – watch for the craic now –
and he runs and he opens the front door and he let rip with the pat of butter
and one of the old boys was sitting up on the hobstone at the side of the fire
with the fire going –and he had hi straight up the face with a pat of butter
and one of the boys said – he let out a snort – and he snorted two candles of butter and the rows were about…come out and over the fields – i think
that’s what wakes were like – it was home made entertainment
it’s a good tradition y’know – i don’t know how the young ones will keep it on
event to the fact that we have the last carrying stuff - - you know – the
carrying into the next place – i like all that kind of thing – but i don’t know if the young ones…well – it’s again what you were saying about – we tend to
celebrate death days rather than…well they’re obviously going to a better
place than this – though nobody’s ever come back to tell us – they always said
that they used to – you know – when someone dies with their eyes open
that’s right – ‘cause my uncle – my mummy was nursing him and he died
and she run out and brought my daddy over and they fixed his eyes with
the pennies – and then went back over to our house to phone and that…and there
was a wee fella – and he’d never seen this before and you know he went over to
the ma and he said ‘there’s something wrong with uncle stanley – he’s lying over
there with two pennies on him – the insult for any man would be sure look at your
man – sure – wouldn’t he steal the pennies of a corpse? – the origin of dead ringers is from the 18th century and that came about through people being afraid
of being buried alive – so they had a string down through the grave and they paid
someone to sit for a week or so – and if they were alive – they rang the bell
and that’s were the term dead ringers came from…there’s supposed to be
a tombstone that says – died once – buried twice –it’s you worst nightmare
what about he banshees? was there a tradition? the banshee was a
premonition of death and when people heard the banshee – people became
very superstitious – they believed that death was imminent – you know – in the
household – so it nearly got to the stage that people would never say that they
heard the banshee or refuse to say it as if that would avoid the luck
that would come with it – people here are still very superstitious…a bird in your house – wouldn’t you feel bad about that…? it’s not a good sign – some people would kill the bird – particularly if it was a magpie – if a magpie came into a
cattle shed – they’d have to kill the magpie and not let it out – having said that
there – i was watching the birds out of the storm there – round here – people
will call them crows – but most people will refer to them as rooks – and my grandfather has often taught me that there is actually a difference between
a crow and a rook – they’re two different birds – and i’ll tell you how to
tell the difference – if you see a whole load of crows together – they’re rooks –
and if you see one rook on its own – he’s a crow – because crows only live in
a pair – rooks all get together and they nest in the trees and they’ll all mob
together – but that’s how you remember that one
down here – they stop the clock and cover its face when people die here
do they? and a mirror – always cover a mirror in particular – stop the clock at the time of death and cover a mirror – it’s going to be awful hard to do that with digita; clocks and everything – take a battery out…[why the mirror?] there’s probably two
or three different trains of thought – one of them was that the mirror’s a centrepoint – an attraction for vanity – and that this is not a time for vanity - and the
superstitious one is that your were afraid that you would see the reflection of
the devil in the mirror and the devil would come in and steal the soul…
you heard about tran ¬a dockworker – twisted – well a wee one lived over…here
and ll the young fellas used to torment him – of course they got the raise out of him – and my wee two brothers went down on hallowe’en and they played nearly
every trick in the book – they took the horse and cart out – and when you consider this years ago – taking a man’s horse and cart was more than taking his car –
i mean it was everything – it was a lot of his wealth – extremely important
but they decided that they would play a different trick on him – they took the cart
out and the pushed the two staves of the cart through a wrought iron gate
and then hooked the horse into the cart so they lay in and then the knocked his
door and fired stones at it till he came out – and then they were all lying in behind the ditch – and then he looked over and he spotted the horse – and he said
and now you are the tran bastard – how did you get into this – and he actually believed that the horse had actually got himself into this [on 21st june] most
of the mythology around that would go back to pagan times…and if you read into a lot of the history – when st patrick came to ireland – the only way he could educate
the people was he’d accommodated most of the pagan beliefs into christianity –
and that was the way that they could swing the people round – because otherwise
it was going to be a clash of two cultures – this way it was one culture – swamp the other one and took it in – and the people were easier - i was reared at the
shore – it’s the fair green road – and they had a fair there – twice a year –
on 1st january and 1st august - but it was a big contradiction that it was the 12th
january and the 12th august – and it had to be resolved – it came from the gregorian calendar – remember when pope gregory added twelve days onto
the calendar to make up for the leap year that wasn’t originally taken into
account? and if you think about it – that fair that was held down there was to
start the new year coming in – and it was the old year going out – which was
a pagan type thing – and the other one was really a harvest festival –
when all the corn and the barley was in so summer was gone over and
the hay was in – and they were having a celebration - everyone would come across from cooley on the far side and the carlingford side and they’d stop on the green island – and they would take their cattle and sheep onto the island
where there was grazing – and they would come over the next morning –
there was a big day’s fair - there was a wee man came over – the blind fiddler –
and he was known all over ireland as the best fiddle player – he taught everyone how to play the fiddle – the guy that did most of the dancing was a man from
the langstone – tom mcarten –and he could outdance anybody – and he often said that the blind filddler and he said – i’m not sure if tom mcarten is alive or dead –
but if he’s alive – this one’s for him – and.the word went up and tom macarten
appeared out o the grave and he danced to entertain everybody –
and they often said that that was a big attraction for people was to go and see the
blind fiddler at the fair green – and that was a big day’s drinking – and horse trade that was one of the biggest horse fairs in ireland - long before…and that’s all gone now – the sea has actually swamped that – it’s all been taken away –
there’s only a strip of grass – not much more than the length of this (50 ft)
the rest of it has been eroded away – over a couple of hundred years – you wouldn’t get many cows on there – if you’re down in carlingford – the big
attraction there is to go into pj o’hares on a sunday afternoon – and there’s four
men from warrenpoint all in their eighties – playing jazz music – and the last sunday pauline and myself were sitting there and we spoke to this woman
who’d just driven eighty miles to listen to hear that – and it’s amazing the number of people that just want that old style atmosphere – just to listen to this old
style atmosphere – you just play… and you get in and do it – and they always had good craic.
and the pub fadó came from cúchulainn’s time – because they say that was
the type of entertainment whenver he was waiting on the armies of queen maeve
when they were fighting over the brown bottles of coolin – queen maeve was coming to take it back – [cúchulainn] was the defender of ulster – and his original
name was setanta – [he] was the hound of chulainn as a young boy (twelve) he was invited up to the great halland everybody was going in for a feast and when
ever he was coming up he had a…and a cannon and a hurling stick in his hand
and he was coming along playing it and everybody – and the king – he said – well
i hope everybody’s in – because i’ve let out my guard dogs – so someone says – the young fella’s coming – and they all ran out and when they got out there – here had killed the hound – he had hit the slipper into the dog’s mouth and choked it
and the king said – that’s all very well and good – but who’s going to guard my castle?
and [cúchulainn] said i’ll guard your castle until you can rear another dog –
that’s how he got his name – the hound – the hound of chulainn so cúchulainn’s
just an old nickname like we have up here - there’s loads of families up here – they’ve all got their own nicknames to identify them – up this way – my grandfather – my grnadmother’s side were sloanes – and they were the spoilsticks – and over
this side the sloanes were the vies andt hen if you were to go down this way
here – there’s two sets of sloanes – there’s paddy taigs one and daddy taigs ones
- that’s the sloanes and they were so far out – they had to be sub-divided again
this was the only way it could be explained – the cunninghams over here were the mickies and then the re’s the tailors up here and it was easy to see where their
names came from- the tailors – obviously – there’s somebody in there –
were tailors – and it developed in the taileurs and up on the island there was
the miller – john the miller – it’s easy to understand how the millers got their name –
and then there was the nickies that came from over here – i’m not sure where the nickies got their name from –and there was all this identification you know of cunninghams and sloanes – that’s a common thing…
[remembering cúchulainn –s it still alive…?] it’s not really – i think it’s dying out
young people have now moved into the x box – televisions – videos – video games – a lot of that there’s mythology and carried on by word of mouth and tale-telling
the tales of cúchulainn and the tales of finn mccool – we were taught that at
school – and all of those were there to explain all the different things…people could see things in nature and they could make sense out of it…
if you read the story of cúchulainn – his story was believed to be the predecessor
to sir launcelot – who was part of king arthur’s mythological grouping and what you
find is that a lot of those stories actually move with the people – sir launcelot – his whole life…is based upon cúchulainn – so whether either of them existed or not
is somewhere out there in the air – what usually happens is there’s
an element of truth – and it’s got added to a bit over the years
but there had to be a foundation somewhere for the story to start
there was someone of extraordinary power or strength
and then over the years it developed – finn mccool has been used to explain
the giant’s causeway…they could understand that in scotland there was a
similar rock formation – so they used the story…they believed the story that
finn mccool lifted a piece of sod and threw it – if you go up the cloch mor –
the big stone at rostrevor – it’s a piece of granite that’s been tested geologically
and it’s from scotland – and it was moved actually by the ice age – and it’s sitting on sedimentary blue stone…so out of character and out of place and they tried to
explain it and they couldn’t understand it – so what they were saying was that
finmccool has throw it there in one of his games or competition with other giants
and he used it as a shot-putt – and it was a twelve ton weight – so he was
a fair old guy – people have a great imagination which shouldn’t be lost
and if you stand at the cloch mor stone and you look at the mountains
the silhouette from that point – you can see what they call the sleeping giant
- and it’s the feet - the legs – the face and nose of someone along the
mountain and they say that was fin mccool’s dying spot – he actually died
on top of the hill – so people have tried explaining nature using mythology
[is there a uniting myth?] depends how far you go back [and now?] i don’t think
so – not that i’m aware of – there are some elements now – within the protestant people – who – because cúchulainn was the defender of ulster –we need
someone to defend…the race…
i think the problem with the protestant side is because it’s such a mix of such
different parts of england and scotland and all the rest of it – that we’re desperately trying to find a culture –so we’re trying to create something that maybe doesn’t…
we never have because fro many years – we’ve disowned anything remotely irish
not realising it was all part of our own irishness and i think that the climate is now better to be able to do that and people are clutching at straws – for example
people up the shankill are liearning to speak irish – thye’re going to irish
dancing and cúchulainn is one of those things…need to have something
one of the things is actually music – cause if you listen to the music
that is played – the protestant band will play jigs – horn pipes and reels – it’s
the same music – it’s just arranged slightly different to accommodate…flutes
as opposed to fiddles –but it’s the same tune
we all play the field of athan rye which isn’t particularly leant to protestant or anything [that] was about the irish famine…trevallion was the minister for home affairs for the british government at the time and he passed the corn laws – because everybody says that britain took the corn to starve the irish-but it didn’t –
that’s a myth – that many catholics
and irish have chosen to believe
because that’s what they were told – it’s not actually true – if you read the history
england was struggling greatly at that stage – and passed the corn laws before the
potato crop failed – and it was because at that stage there was big conflict in
england between the landowners and those that were trying to get into
organisation and industry – so what the landowners were doing were saying –
look – we’re going to loss our our power base so we’ve got to get the corn
from all the colonies back in [al the irish colonies – yes?] well – were one of them – yes - all the other colonies – it wasn’t just ireland
the english wanted all the corn brought from ireland over to england and said the irish can eat potatoes
this is a myth that i have read up on myself – it’s oen that we have often heard –
i mean – i was taught that at school – the same as you were – but when you read into it – it wasn’t the case – trevallian – the minister for home affairs had tp pass the law
in order to keep the landowners happy because the landowners were the power
base – and if they hadn’t they’d a been voted out – and what it meant was the corn
all went to england to be processed into flour and whatever else – it couldn’t go back
but of course to go back – you had to have enough money to buy it which the irish didn’t have – so there was a lot more to it – it was quite unfortunate in that it waas
probably a very bad touch of coincidence that he potato crops failed at exactly the
same time as the landowners were struggling with the corn laws – under narmal circumstances – ireland would have been completely self sufficient – if britain had relaxed the corn laws much there actually would have been a revolution in england
and the government would have been thrown out – and there’s never going to be any government that’s going to be like a turkey and vote for christmas – and as a result of that the irish suffered – but in fairness it was about self sufficiency and survival for the english and their government –because if they had pushed all the corn back to ireland
yes – ireland may have survived but england would have suffered –so…revolution
yes - it was a sequence of events that were quite unfortunate – so i don’t believe that it was as maliciously intended as the irish have often portrayed – that’s the way it was put into our heads – always put into my head too –i like to read myself and find out
how much of that’s fact and much is mythology – but it’s amazing how stories get twisted – i mean – i’m sure you’ve seen the film ‘mutiny on the bounty’ captain bligh was not considered to be a brutal or a harsh captain – in fact he was considered to be quite lenient – he was a damn poor ships master but he wasn’t particularly harsh
but it was just that mr fletcher christian didn’t like what was going on – so the story
romanticised and told a wee bit and captain bligh – whatever he…was brought back
to england and there was a massive enquiry and fletcher christian was found guilty of mutiny –what they did then was back their man because they’d no choice
but whenever they backed him – whatever was over and done with –they
recognised that he had handle the situation badly – so do you know where he ended up? he ended up as a harbour master in dublin and all the quays that you now see were actually built by captain bligh – because he was a marine engineer
and he should have stayed a marine engineer and he should never have been a ship’s
master – so all that harbour wall that goes all the way down the liffy in dublin
captain bligh did that in his last days when he was put off the ships and that
was his real claim to fame rather than that romantic story that’s often talked about
[any other pieces of information discovered to be untrue?] i think there’s a lot of that. i think now that people need to read for themselves and it’s always good to read someone else’s opinion rather than re-inforce what you’ve always been told –
i used to read a columnist in the sunday times and i used to think he was the
most arrogant – egotistical person that i’d ever met and you really dislike him –
but it was really by reading his stuff that it challenged your own thinking and made you either think what you were doing was right or perhaps he had a valid point
he’d laid claim for everything – he was responsible for claire robinson becoming
the president and it was all down to himself – but he did challenge your thinking…
as long as the truth made him look good – he spoke it…but the point is – if you only read the stuff that you know – you’ll never broaden your own horizon – you’ll
never learn anything because no one will actually say to you ‘the potato famine
wasn’t about the potatoes- it was about the survival of the landed gentry of the
government of england – y’know - unless you read somebody else’s stuff – you
won’t learn that - then when they sow the fields of athan rye – you stole trevallian’s corn – so the children may see the morn – and that’s what that was about – adnthat was that was about – it was trevallian trying to get the corn back home – to keep the government alive – but unless i ’d have read that – i still wouldn’t be sitting believing
that the english did it on purpose to get rid of the irish – so i think it’s a important to read as wide as you can
that’s been the problem over the years – we’ve never been taught our own history and we’re never taught in an objective way- we’re taught it with a slant – i was never taught irish history at school – i knew nothing about irish history at school until i was fourteen
there’s a lot of truth in irish history only coming out now then? the difficulty here is (and i’m going into controversial grounds – i realise) is that we segregated our education – and as a result…we had two different versions of history taught - and
the form of history was taught to suit the individual teaching it or the curriculum was
approved by one party or the other – i think (and it’s a completely personal basis) it’s only by integrating the education – that you will perhaps then get a more balanced viewpoint of history…
